1. Ryan Brown wrote...

Steroid testing! As a competitive sport, Crossfit has ARRIVED, baby!!

2. Harper wrote...

Now Jeremy Thiel can kick a$$ and no one can say $H!T.

3. Barberic wrote...

GOOD CALL CROSSFIT HQ!

4. cam birtwell wrote...

this is an excellent step in the right direction, I applaud the Games organizers for setting this up. there do however have to be several stringent procedures in place to ensure that no one can evade or cheat the testing and I hope that these have been covered well.

testing at the Games does not preclude the use of steroids of course, as any individual may stop taking androgens in advance of the Games and not show up positive.

i wonder who was informed of this ahead of time (competitor-wise)?

good job crossfit!

5. jake wrote...

this is a big step for CF. its awesome that they will be implementing the tests. i just hope that none of the elites test positive.

6. Syn wrote...

WOW!!!!! GOOD JOB!!!!

7. Tom wrote...

I'm a little surprised this was announced. How long does it take to clear anabolics from your system? If anyone has trained up for the Games illegally, they could stop now and still pass the test.

8. Kris Kepler replied to comment from Harper...

well said!

9. Kris Kepler wrote...

I took this straight off this website..

http://www.ohsinc.com/how_long_do_drugs_stay_in_your_system.htm

Anabolic steroids (Stanzolol, Stanazolol, Nandrolene; Steroids, Roids, Juice), oral- up to 3 weeks; injected- up to 3-6 months and more

10. Boyd wrote...

CF has arrived. This is a huge and necessary step towards the legitimacy of the Games. I hope that CF will not get any "black eyes" from the testing. Good luck to all competitors.

11. MARKO wrote...

AWESOME!!

However, does anyone know of any legal supplementation that can give a false positive? Specifically Creatine Monohydrate products.

12. Twall wrote...

I think that this is great to see, it shows that Crossfit is making it's way to becoming a legitimate sport.

13. Brian Yoak wrote...

Check the website Informed Choice. I believe they have information about products that are Ok to take, or rather products they have tested that do not include banned substances from the World anti-doping agency, but not sure about products that could give false positive

http://www.informed-choice.org/home.php

14. Jay Ashman wrote...

this is beautiful news.. I have been very adamant about steroid testing being a necessity in our community as far as the games go. This is a huge step in the right direction.

Great job HQ. Weed out the cheaters.

Creatine will not create a false positive.

15. Sean Dunston wrote...

Thank God. I was hoping this day would come.

16. Bob Guere wrote...

Nice call HQ... no question this will further legitimize our winners as fittest on the planet.

17. Justin wrote...

I wonder who is reading this and freaking out right now.

18. Clay wrote...

I guess just watch who doesn't show? Heheheh

19. Kristy wrote...

Awesome!

20. Surrey Sterling m/39/5'10"/175 wrote...

That is truly Awesome! Keep'in it clean and genuine! Way to go Crossfit HQ!

21. Dingus replied to comment from Clay...

Right... I'll be a bit bummed if some of the "favorites" all of a sudden have some sort of issue and don't show up.

22. Dan wrote...

Am I naive to think that not one of the games participants will test positive? I just couldn't imagine being a part of the Crossfit community and be exposed to all the good it offers and then walking out the door and juicing up. I hope I can keep my idealist perspective after the tests are done.

23. doubtful wrote...

Drug testing will possibly put CF on par with the IOC, USATF, IAAF, and other organizations that are constantly demonstrating that they can utilize results to their own desire and benefit.
NSFW http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny_grok/games_olympic_people_play&cr=

24. Matt replied to comment from Dan...

It's a pretty optimistic way of thinking but I have a feeling we will all be surprised/disappointed to find out maybe not everyone is as pure as we think. I'm glad they are doing this. I just wonder how long it will take to get the results from the testing.

25. Arlo wrote...

Great idea CFHQ! We were just talking about this at lunch!

26. Russell Pettypiece wrote...

Great News!!! there is no room for cheaters in the crossfit community...I hope this doesn't apply to anybody at the games this year

27. bob wrote...

Actually, according to Kris Kepler's post, they just might have enough time.

28. sean wrote...

Nice Call! Glad to see this put into place. Now just curious to see if there are any drop outs before the event.

29. nick wrote...

wow.

on a personal note, I think this is good news and I'm happy for the competitors that there'll be no possibility of snide comments after their efforts.

on a broader level though, we should note this date down as the day that Crossfit crossed the line from a movement to an organisation. It was always going to happen due to it's popularity and the phenomenon and marketability of the Games but...this shows that things have and will change

30. Sean wrote...

Awesome, awesome news.

31. silverback wrote...

I don't know much about doping, testing, etc. etc. On the surface, it seems like a great move. I am strongly opposed to steroid use and the scope of it's abuse in sports is much much larger than most people realize. I don't know if users would have time to get it out of their systems. I don't know what can be found in urine as opposed to blood tests. The fact is there are many CrossFitters who came from the bodybuilding community. Still more have come from the athletic community. Both arenas provide adequate temptation for steroid use and I'm sure many have tried drugs. There is also a percentage that is using now.

32. adam noble wrote...

Great move!

33. Ruben wrote...

Awesome! I am 100% in support of this!!!

34. Ryan wrote...

dang, there goes my chance for ever winning the games lol jk. food is my drug

35. Aaron wrote...

100% grass-fed beef is kind of like juicing... ;)

Good idea w/ the testing, but now I wonder how many more people it would've netted if it wasn't announced until day 1 check-in time.

36. jase wrote...

Great move HQ!

Here's to a future of a legit, competitive and more professional approach to the games and to the sport that it is we all love so much.

37. Doug wrote...

Crossfit has arrived? Because they are testing for anabolics? Please. Crossfit is a workout not a sport. And not a particularly good one most of the time at that.

38. Jeremy replied to comment from Aaron...

Agreed Aaron, my wife and I were wondering who is running out right now to buy masking agents. I applaud the decision to test, but I am reminded of something I read that Coach wrote on the 2008 games site. From what I gathered of what Coach wrote is that drug testing just gives way to more creative cheaters.

Here's the link, Coach's comment is 4 down from the top.

http://games2008.crossfit.com/athletes/be-afraidbe-very-afraid.html

39. A. Roth wrote...

I was wondering when or if drug testing was ever going to be considered for the games. How about in the future Crossfit considers UCI Standards. Steroids aren't the only game in town.

40. Robin Boose wrote...

Good Call. And, if you happen to be one of the unlucky peepee persons, please come visit my booth where you can buy a tshirt and feel better!

41. Shana A. CrossFit East Decatur wrote...

LOVE IT!!

42. Blair Lowe wrote...

I think they should also test for certain stimulants but I'm not sure how easy it is ( cost, time ) to do so.

43. kath@crossfitnorthatlanta.com wrote...

This is awesome. I must be so naive tho, because I just can't imagine a true crossfitter roiding up. We're too prideful HAHAHAHA

44. Dan - CrossFit Bucks wrote...

Should have tested at The Qualifiers...might be some deserving athletes sitting at home come The Games.

45. Chef wrote...

Excellent and announced late enough that anything but the lightest user will find it's too late to do sh*t about it.

Facinated to see how many of the listed athletes come down with the 'flu' prior to the games... my heart hopes NONE, but my experience is that where there are trophies and cash, there are cheaters. period.

46. william N wrote...

now now sheeple there's no dipstick test for steroids so unless there's a lab i'm calling skepticism on this.

47. DT wrote...

When Lance Armstrong began his comeback earlier this year, he vowed at the beginning to be tested for PEDs regularly and post the results on his LiveStrong website. However, he quickly reneged on his offer after (I believe) realizing how expensive the testing process is. I think with PED testing, like anything else, you get what you pay for. If CF couldn't or wouldn't cough up $500K for a company-saving insurance plan, then I wonder what the quality of the tests would be of what they'd be willing to pay for.

As noble as this initiative sounds, I can't shake off a few comments made on this message blog already focusing on the reason why HQ is giving competitors three weeks of heads-up for testing, which is the amount of time it takes to wash the stuff out of a person's circulatory and endocrine system. Here's my theory: CF got some serious and legitimate wind of a much-beloved firebreather(s), male or female, juicing on a regular basis. Of course, once word gets to HQ, legally they can't unring a bell, so they had to take action before word got out that they knew and didn't do anything. So...they're going to test, but as a goodwill gesture AND to save the PR machine and the hater haters that worship sub-2 Fran times, the Gods and Goddesses are being given a chance to clean out before the Games...IMO...

CF should conduct no-notice 100% testing before the first event. I think the results would be shocking and heartbreaking, but that's what it takes to build legitimacy.

Check out the Rest Day message traffic about this topic...MUCH more wolfpacking on the haters by the sheeple happening there than here.

48. nick wrote...

DT,

I find your comments distasteful and pretty sad.

Do you have such little faith in this community and the coach & organisation that give you so much for free, that you have to distrust them, their ethics and their methods on a free, open forum organised by them?

Your comments openly cast doubt on every competitor in the games and their performances without a shred of evidence.

You are also openly hypothesising about the integrity of the people who run Crossfit and organise the Games.

Ironically, you are doing this, as this young organisation takes it's first steps to eradicate the type of cheating that you are now accusing it's athletes of conspiring in.

I hope you don't approach everything in your life so cynically.

49. BC wrote...

Of the 50 or so posts up to this point, I find DT's the most insightful. We're talking about competition here. Elite athletes, and those who aspire to that level. Competitors always seek an edge. And community or organization, underground or "arrived," creating an environment (websites, youtube, the games) where one can reach elite status among one's peers opens the door to seek that edge by whatever means possible.

CrossFit is continually breaking new ground in the fitness realm. This is new territory for what a steroid-enhanced athlete might accomplish.

50. ken c wrote...

DT

you amaze me with the level of your juvenile conspiracy theories. just speculate on and on with not one fact on which to base your never ending bullshit slagging of crossfit. do you really need the attention that much?

51. AS wrote...

I don't mind the idea of steroid testing at the games but what is really wrong with steroid use? I think the dangers of it are mostly hype and people not 'using as directed' (see the documentary 'bigger, stronger, faster')

How would you react if you found out all our spec-ops guys were using a carefully controlled physician managed steroid of some kind. I'd say that sounds pretty functional to me.

Why is crossfit different? How many videos do guys like K-Star and Tony Budding say we're chasing performance and everything else falls into place?

52. Jason replied to comment from ken c...

DT is right... I personally know of one CFer that has qualified that is taking an illegal substances. I'm glad that HQ is testing but I wish that it was going to be a surprise test and that people didn't have time to get it out of their systems. Next time - make it a surprise!

53. JoeM wrote...

Again, DT shows little competence to be able to post in such a thread.

"CF should conduct no-notice 100% testing before the first event."

and then what happens next year? Should HQ try to actively fool athletes into thinking there will be no testing next year and fool them again no-notice?

Nice job CF HQ. I think its a great idea to be openly against and test for steroids other than some other elite athletic competitions.

54. Mad Max replied to comment from Doug...

CrossFit not a sport? I think there are 100's if not 1000's of people who would disagree with that statement. OPT said it himself, CrossFit is his chosen sport...and it is mine as well. Competition, group WOD's, fundraisers, the camaraderie, etc...Think outside the box, then build one!

55. jake replied to comment from Doug...

doug the reason you say that CF is just a workout is because you treat like its just a workout. a sport is an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature. some of us here COMPETE each day in our workouts. whether is against the stopwatch, against a workout partner, in a qualifier, we are competing in a certain skillset. if you choose not to puruse crossfit in that manner then thats fine, but don't get on here and demean what we do.

56. Remy wrote...

Well done crossfit!! keep it legit!!!

57. Graham wrote...

Great news.

will the be any more punishment for cheaters?

58. James wrote...

DT, You bring up an excellent point.
"CF should conduct no-notice 100% testing before the first event. I think the results would be shocking and heartbreaking, but that's what it takes to build legitimacy."

It begs the question why HQ gave notice for testing 3 weeks out? Maybe that just the mention of a test would deter would-be users from competing. Athletes might end up pissing in a cup followed by HQ tossing it down the drain. Would be an effective deterrent, much less expensive AND save face. Thoughts?

For the people getting nasty and mean, there seems to be a lot of anger when someone has an unpopular opinion. Remember, at the end of the day we are all people and this is just a website. No need to get nasty and childish.

59. PANOS wrote...

Steroid testing is a start. However people who use will find a way to get around a positive test by coming off of them in time to pass. Bodybuilders have been doing it forever. They should employ Olympic standards. Not just some random piss test. That being said I wonder how this will affect the results.

60. Brandon M. wrote...

Finally. I wonder how many random injuries may occur after today. "I can't compete now, I tweeked my left glute."

61. silverback replied to comment from Doug...

Not a sport? With that comment you affirm that you have no useful opinion in matters of fitness or sport.

62. Rainer Hartmann replied to comment from Doug...

If you feel it's not great, why are you wasting your time then posting on here? I guess there must be something beneficial in it for you, or is it just to piss people off that know better than you?

63. Hero wrote...

This is awesome! And I'm happy so many others feel this is the right thing to do... Good job, CF!

64. Tom Silvestrini wrote...

THIS IS VERY WELCOME NEWS!! I raised the question of steroid use and testing for the games a number of months ago and was disheartened there was virtually no response and no banter on the log. It is important that CFit attempts to level the playing field as much as financially possible to promote the ideal of all around physical fitness, especially for those athletes that would never dream of cheating. The games, by their very nature, necessitated a means to promote the ideal. It seems utterly foolish that someone would cheat simply for bragging rights and yet at the same time would ultimately be insulting the Coach and his awesome contribution to fitness.

Keep up the great work. And yes Coach is right... there will always be someone trying to "beat the system", but its nice to know cheaters are not welcome in this community.

Also in my personal view, its not the use of steroids etc. that make them distasteful, its the intent that ultimately matters. If you're putting your life on the line, and it might help you get home to your wife and kids your still a hero. If you're juiceing to win CF Games, you're a loser, even if you win and get away with it.

65. Max Zerba wrote...

Where is the list of banned substances published? What is the policy? Is caffeine on it? What about smelling salts? If those don't enhance your performance, why do people use them?

66. Tony wrote...

Max,
If someone at the games drank a can of coke for the caffeine then went on to destroy the WOD, I would go back to drinking coke.

67. silverback wrote...

I think the biggest mistake is offering cash prizes. Money will taint a sport, without question!! The more, the worse. If CF wants to give back, give the money to worthy causes. Sports have been a part of my life since could walk but I have no interest in professional sports anymore. Money being the main reason. CrossFit is the only sport I love now. Keep competing for the right reasons. Stick to what has made this great to so many of us. It has nothing to do with money!

68. Max Zerba wrote...

OK so what are the banned substances?

69. Red wrote...

Well, it would be a bit stupid of them to give out the list of banned substances now!

I am with whoever said they should have kept it quiet until Games day!!!

A lot of banned substances are clear in 3 weeks.

70. JroCk wrote...

Bravo CrossFit! As an 6 year ex-steroid abuser, long before CrossFit, I know the dangers, short and long term affects done to the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual self that result from steroid use.
It has no place in our community, so bravo CrossFit!
~J~

71. bingo replied to comment from DT...

Ah, DT, there you are!

And again with the unsubstantiated innuendo, the blanket accusations and the assumption of ill-will and mal-intent. Are you fronting for Oliver Stone?

And am I, too, just one of the despised "Sheeple" simply because I choose to assume good intent? Because I choose to take the more measured, reasonable position that this Crossfit Games adventure is a very young enterprise with its organizers in a reactive mode moreso than a proactive one?

Nah. Sorry pal. Not buyin' it. Are there some folks out there using steroids and other PED's? Of course there are. Frankly, outside of the Games I'm not sure I really care all that much about that to be truthful. I think the Crossfit community has made it clear that it would like its Games champions to be clean, however, and this is the start of the process to to just that.

Did CFHQ get word of some someone of note who has used some something? I don't know. Do you? If so sack up and say so. Use your real name and a verifiable source and email. If, however, you DON'T know that then STFU. Saying the "it's just my opinion" or "it's my theory" doesn't excuse what may turn out to be nothing but needless mudslinging. Slander.

And if what you surmise turns out to be true, true in its entirety, who cares? If the scenario you propose occurred and the unmasking of a Crossfit celebrity as a steroid user would indeed cause irreparable harm to this very young venture, perhaps destroying it in its infancy, should CFHQ allow that to happen just to satisfy the self-proclaimed guardians of some truth like you? Those who carp incessantly, always negative, always critical, especially in tone and tact?

Again, nah. Crossfit the fitness program is a very evolved entity, one in which the evolutionary steps now occurring seem to be rather subtle and small. The Crossfit Games, on the other hand, and the concept of Crossfit as SPORT, are rather young; the evolutionary steps are so large that they appear revolutionary.

In order to be part of the loyal opposition it is necessary to occasionally behave in a loyal manner. I'm a lotta things, DT, but "Sheeple" ain't among them.

Darrell E. White, M.D.
darrellwhite at mac . com

72. Parks wrote...

Now I am not sure exactly how steroids work, but with the 3 week notice of steroid testing and the assumption that a user would flush their system to test clean, then hasn't CFHQ achieved what they want, which is a steroid free champion? That is also assuming that this steroid user would be able to then go on and win the CF Games without the drugs in their system, which I highly doubt could happen.

73. Jon wrote...

This is a good step in the right direction. It would be nice to see in the future more randomized, surprise testing to reduce the number of those who may think they can still reap the benefits of using peds during a "off season" at the games. This however would be expensive and difficult to implement and clearly further thought on the issue is needed.

74. Kam wrote...

Well,
Coach did say that the workouts wouldn't be anything that anyone is familiar with.

Wod 1: Sudden Death "Peeing for Time" definitley fits that category...

DT, Bingo, and anyone else who is activley contributing to these discussions. I think most of you all have legitimate points on alot of levels. The most important message IMHO though is that it's a step in the right direction for a fledgling sport and an established community.

Reputation (for individuals within) (Coach if you're reading this I know you give the two fingered salute to the institution ;)), Integrity and for one of a better word - Virtuosity is a cornerstone of the crossfit microcosm. Taking a pragmatic approach - An excellent point was raised on the mainpage discussion log: We are data points. When you have a sample size there is always a distribution within the population - Lets just hope there isnt too fat a tail.

Good luck to all of the competitors. I sincerely hope you dont get a genuine injury or sickness leading up to the games because it sounds like the massess are going to "get medieval on your ass*" if you do..

- Kam

75. Tony Cowden wrote...

Wow... such hot topics! Is CF a sport or workout? Both. One more than the other for different folks. I've got both at my affiliate. Some folks haven't a clue that other CF Affiliates outside ours even exist, much less view and read the comments on this or any other page. They come and go for the workout and go about their day. Others from our box love CF as much you that are reading these comments do.

But they all realize there are PED users amongst the CF ranks. There are PED users in Golf for ****'s sake. Why wouldn't there be in CF?

Is the urine test any good? For some drugs. Others, not so much. You need a blood test for them. Is every athlete at the games going to be tested for every PED known to man? We don't know yet. Coach and HQ haven't announced the details of the testing procedures or the drugs they're testing for.
It's certainly not a profitable thing... steriod testing for all athletes will be expensive.

Crossfit prides itself on openess. When they announce the details then we can all conjure consipracy theories about how HQ is letting it's top dogs know so the don't pop hot or whatever you come up with. Just realize this... no matter what test or procedures HQ, none are perfect. So no matter what Coach does, some will still be able to find fault and conspiracy.

I personally wish they would have waited and announced it at registration.

Great step in the right direction, either way.

76. nick wrote...

Bingo,

again, I agree with your pov - DT is anonymously rabble rousing with bad intent and I question his motives

I include a call out to 'Jason'. who claims to personally know a qualifier who is cheating with drugs.

To me, an anonymous claim like this casts unfair doubt and unsubstantitated innuendo on every competitor at the games.

If you know who it is...really know, then report them to HQ and get them disqualified from the games.

If you have your facts right you have nothing to lose. But if you don't, then pull your head in. To make a statement like that without backing it up is pretty weak

77. tim carr wrote...

Doug is a jagoff!!

78. DT wrote...

RE to Bingo:

Yes, you are a sheeple.

My opinions of what may have precipitated current CF events are a product of pattern recognition, produced by a bird's eye view of history with regard to politics, sports, finance, and what have you. Furthermore, if any sheeple have ANY inkling at all of the business application of the term "Devil's Advocate," you'd understand why naysaying can be a sign of good intent and can result in good things.

I think CF is doing the right AND smart thing with the way they're going to execute drug testing, but I don't agree with it solely because a Glassman came up with the idea.

Yes, my email address is legit. Give me a ring if you so desire.

79. Jose Canseco wrote...

I will be writing a book naming all CF athletes that I use to use with. Sorry! Still looking to make money and reality TV opps are drying up.

80. bingo wrote...

DT,

There is a fine, but definite, line between "Devil", "Devil's Advocate", and "Loyal Opposition". Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough at the end of my last post, an admission that I make with some embarrassment since I fancy myself rather erudite and precise in my writing.

I have never, not once, read a post from you that is positive. Not a single post that is on balance complimentary to Crossfit. In order to be considered "Loyal Opposition" one must first establish credibility as "Loyal", and one must IMO make some attempt to transmit that one's criticism is constructive criticism, offered in the hope that action on said criticism will improve that to which one is loyal. Criticism that is unrelenting in its negativism, always, is not what one hears from the "Devil's Advocate", it is what one hears from an adversary. That is why I asked you on the Main Page if you were even a Crossfitter.

A sheeple? Can't see it. My second most significant contribution to this community, CFSB, is one that Coach does not approve of. A sheeple? Don't buy it. I've said a couple of times on this topic that I'm not sure I really care all that much about steroid use in Crossfit or the Crossfit Games. Not exactly the party line, eh?

As I see it the burden is on you to prove that you are a member of the "Loyal Opposition" and that as such you are playing the "Devil's Advocate" in order to foster the eventual greater good of the movement, the event, and the community. Otherwise you're just one more naysayer yelling into the coming storm.

81. chef wrote...

DT,

The only gear you can 'flush' from your system in three to four weeks is anavar and maybe test suspension and some none entities like proviron and clen, of no use to these folks as far as performance... any of the mainstay gear flavors: test enanthate/cypionate/sustanon up to trenbolone and then to deca can take 3 months to 18months for the metabolites to resist testing, so try speaking on a subject you know something about next time, k?

And OF COURSE they're not going to test EVERY ATHLETE, einstein, the take SPECIMINES from every athlete and test the winners ONLY.

And what knuckle head would think that the testing will be done on site?? YOU SEND THE WINNERS SAMPLES OFF TO A LAB after the fact. Who would give a shit if the 75th man out of 75 was a positive? Seeing as how there are only possibly ten 'finishers' out of the whole mess, the testing is simple and a lot less money than you wasted on educating yourself on exogenous performance enhancement.

No sit down and shut up before you pull a muscle.

82. DT wrote...

Chef, tell the "who would give a hoot if the 75th man (or woman)" point to the honest competitor who got beat at a qualifier by a cheater...but you know what? You're correct: since steroids were not illegal at the qualifiers, if wasn't really cheating.

Why are even discussing this? Nobody's been caught yet, and they won't be because every firebreather gets their immense work capacity from the proper balance of eiconasoids.

Now, be careful that you don't cut a finger or smear anything while windexing your collection of autographed "Every Second Counts" DVDs.

83. pat wrote...

DT :
just stop posting. If you don't like crossfit and the things it stands for, just leave.

84. DT wrote...

Pat:

Man, you'll never make it to the Games with THAT attitude. Toughen up, sourpuss, or just leave.

85. Greg/M2 wrote...

BZ HQ!

86. Playoff Beard replied to comment from DT...

Sounds like somebody could use a cold beer and a man hug. Send me an email.

87. ken c wrote...

bingo

i think we need to stop giving DT the attention he so desperately needs. ignore this troll. he's got nothing to offer to any productive debate.

88. Maximus @ CrossFit East Bay wrote...

Don't feed the trolls!

89. Adam Stevenson wrote...

DT sighting:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1240/840084340_ead43fb1fa.jpg?v=0

90. Raphael wrote...

If it hasn't been posted yet:

http://www.gladwell.com/2001/2001_08_10_a_drug.htm

Never thought CF had so many drama queens... go do a workout or sth.

91. nick wrote...

hey jose,

given you know so much for a fact...why not post the names on this site, where you will be open for a lawsuit if it's not true.

Because...if it's a fact, you've got nothing to lose, right?

or are you DT in disguise?

92. nick wrote...

thanks for the article Raphael - very interesting.

93. DT replied to comment from chef...

Chef, about your comment concerning "what knucklehead would think that the testing will be done on site??" At the very top of this page, CF states:

Break Records Legally: CrossFit will be conducting on-site steroid testing on all athletes competing at the 2009 CrossFit Games. Every competitor will be required to provide a urine specimen during the Games which will be tested for performance enhancing substances. A positive result on this test will negate any placings, and all awards will be rescinded.

94. Seth St. wrote...

I hate to be the 98th post on this, wish I could have responded earlier to some uneducated responses, but here goes.

There in fact very few illegal performance enhancing drugs that can be flushed from your system in three weeks. The majority of these few drugs would lose their effects during this three week time period, since they require constant injection/pill taking to be effective. EVERYTHING else will still show up on a drug test, so HQ will be effective in either identif

To someone who posted about "other legal substances such as creatine" Creatine is a naturally occurring substance found in red meats, it will not make you fail a urine test. The same goes for many other substances, glutamine, l-arginine and anything else you may question.

Second, specifically in response to a DT post. HQ is NOT doing this because they caught wind of a big name user. They are doing this because of the growing popularity of the sport and the fact that a monetary prize is being offered. Is it a small amount? Yes. But in the years to come I think we all anticipate the value of the prize to rise and implementing testing at this point in CF history will prove to be extremely effective in deterring PED users.

Accusing big names of using PED's? Uneducated in my opinion. CF is founded upon sound health decisions and living the healthiest life possible, and I can't really think of a "big name" that isn't a poster boy/girl for this lifestyle.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to get all of that out of my system.

95. TG wrote...

People need to chill! It's equally silly to say that "everyone in the top 25 is clearly jucing" or that "this is CF, we have values, there are no cheaters." It's just as pompous and naive to assume one as it is the other. Ultimately, nobody knows except the athletes themselves and maybe their coaches.

96. D. CROOKS wrote...

This is getting out of hand...

97. cc wrote...

Hell yes! Good move! Level playing field!

Hopefully next time, this will be done at the regional qualifier levels. Painfully obvious who was and wasn't..

98. sevan wrote...

DT-

Your insight is profound, logic flawless, and critical thinking unmatched. Therefore, could you please answer me a few questions that I have been dying to know the answrs too.

1- did aliens really make the crop cicrles ?

2 - how do they get the gum in the center of a blow pop

3 - where is the lost city of Atlantis

4 - is bigfoot in the Appalacians or Cascade mountain range?

5 - and finally, but most important - what the fuck is going on with the Bermuda Triangle ? - a plane or boat hasn't been lost in years

cheers
sevan

99. gonzo wrote...

cc
I totally agree that it would have been nice to have the testing at the regional qualifiers. I can't help but think there are a few folks who won't get the chance to compete in California because they were beat out by a cheater at the regionals...it is a learning process, though, so perhaps there will be changes made to the testing in the future.
At the very least, this is an encouraging first step in the right direction.

100. DT replied to comment from sevan...

Sevan, if y'all are doing what you're doing with regard to testing for PEDs because of why I think you're doing it, then y'all are doing it perfectly and honorably.

The trouble with most conspiracy theories is that they assume the existence of a hypercompetent government. Since CF is a private company, there's no doubt in my mind that a conspiracy can be accomplished with aplomb ;^)

101. JC wrote...

What's up with all this talk about an "even playing field"? The variety inherent in human genetics has made it so that there is no such thing. Given the same training, nutrition, rest etc. some people will arrive at a higher level of performance than others. That might be disheartening for some of us less genetically gifted folks but too f'n bad. Suck it up, soldier on and reach your own genetic potential without drugs. Records set using drugs are as meaningless and empty as those using bench press shirts and other mechanical aids. Good on ya HQ for stepping up to the plate and doing what can realistically be done to try and keep drugs out of CrossFit. There will always be cheaters and those looking for the magic bullet so even if drug testing isn't perfect at least it makes it perfectly clear that it isn't cool.

102. Kris Kepler replied to comment from gonzo...

I can't help but think there are a few folks who won't get the chance to compete in California because they were beat out by a cheater at the regionals...

If that's the case they are on the list of competitors and will be exposed. It was obvious at my qualifier certain individuals that were juicing, or had juiced before, and you know what??? They didn't qualify, some didn't even come close!

103. joe wrote...

Bummer....

104. Clinton wrote...

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, and I apologize if so, but there are over a hundred comments to pour through and most say the same thing...

Anyway, steroids testing wouldn't be necessary if CF did not offer monetary prizes to the winners. You take away any sort of monetary incentive ($5K is a nice incentive) to juice, and the steroid users will not gain much beyond what CF is supposed to be about...winning (death and glory if you are the old-fashioned, Spartan type). Those who juice probably care about everything BUT better health. I say that the only prize should be props and nothing more. That's how it's been in years past, as far as I know, and nobody complained, as far as I know.

If I was capable of competing, I wouldn't care about money. Hell, I might even pay for the trip to Aromas, if necessary.

Here's a thought, take the money from the sponsors that go towards prizes and distribute it to affiliates or help start new ones...Just a thought.

Remember, if there's no incentive, there's no problem.

105. mo wrote...

great move... if I'm not mistaken there still isnt any testing in triathlon... way to stay ahead of the curve.

106. Duke Nukem wrote...

This is awesome. I love how it's all last minute too so we can see who is really cheating and who "calls in sick."

I wouldn't be shocked if quite a few guys don't show, and a number of "girls" who may show up with notes from the doctor saying these steroids are part of their post-op medicines.

107. Anthony Springman replied to comment from Clinton...

Clinton,

I appreciate your comments, but I disagree with the money issue. I posted on the mainsite about this when it was announced. Having competed in drug tested powerlifting, bodybuilding, and olympic weightlifting for many years I can tell you that I competed alongside those individuals who were using anabolic steroids for the singular purpose of winning the first place plastic and marble trophy. It is about being the best, numero uno. If one has to cheat (defined in this context as using Performance enhancers in a tested competition) so be it. Money was never an issue, yet cheating still occurred. The money is a nice incentive, and the fact that one would become an instant "rock star" in the crossfit community couldn't hurt either. Offering a monetary reward does not encourage one to "roid up" to win the games.

108. Ryan M wrote...

I'm glad they did this. I don't care if someone is juicing, but I care if they try to compete and beat other people who put in the work without illegal aids.

Clinton, I think you're completely wrong. It's correct that taking away incentives fixes certain problems, but you're mistaken by thinking that money is the sole incentive of someone to take steroids. Maybe that would stop you, but not the vast majority of those currently using. I think most steroids users are VERY concerned about their health, appearance, and strength. They don't do it to make money, they do it for themselves and to increase their performance and appearance faster than they could naturally. Therefore, you aren't going to see less roiders by taking away money prizes, because money prizes are not their incentive.

It's just a matter of having the testing, and letting it be known that anyone is welcome to do crossfit, but if you want to compete in the games for the title and the prizes, you better win it by working harder than the guy next to you.

109. T wrote...

Awesome news, and this needs to be done. CrossFit IS A SPORT, not sure who thought otherwise - testing is a must. Kudos to the Glassman's and CFHQ for making the step.

Question - will the affiliate cup team members be tested? We have an older member on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). He won't be disqualified, will he?

110. Ricardo wrote...

I am glad to see this is going to happen. I will be shocked and disappointed if people do end up testing positive, but it is inevitable. I am sure that there will be a couple who do. Those who don't who are afraid of how it might tarnish their image may opt out for whatever reason. The bottom line is this: Crossfit was not built on fitness superstars, but on a philosophy, a methodology that weeds out those who are not the fittest. The games IS the attraction, not those who are participating in it. Integrity, with every repetition, as well as testing every athlete. The need to have a CLEAN competition is what Crossfit is all about. I hope that all who participate understand that not only are they competitors, but they are the ambassadors of Crossfit. Winning will be important, but not as important as maintaining the crossfit philosophy which is virtuosity, integrity and may the fittest win. 3-2-1 GO!!!

Ricardo
Crossfit HEL, Portland, OR

Go 'Rome and Kellams!!!!

111. Blair Lowe wrote...

I wonder if those people outside of CF look at those people who have done CF and the elites and accused them of roid usage and thus this is why the push for the testing. Perhaps this is the reason more than anything else.

112. Brandon Crossfit NE Georgia replied to comment from JC...

Great point, great point.
There is no such thing as "fair," but steroid use definately has no place in Crossfit. I was so glad to see that this is happening this year. As a former APF powerlifter who regrettably 'supplemented' during my time competing there, and after becoming dissillusioned with it all, I stopped 'supplementing' and consequently, stopped training as well. Not that I had to, but I basically thought I'd F'd myself for life. I didn't train PERIOD for over a year.
THEN I FOUND CROSSFIT.

I never thought I'd be able to achieve the kind of strength I'd (artificially) achieved before, but through Crossfit, I not only (legitimately) regained much of my former strength (at a much lower bodyweight, I might add...) but can honestly say I am in the best damn shape of my life, and a much more well-rounded, fit athlete. It has been over 2 and a half years since I put any of that junk in my body, and I make strength gains daily-from hard (and smart) training. (Thanx Coach)
At the time, I bought into the lie that 'everyone is doing it' and 'i need to do this to even the playing field.' Truth is, there is no such thing as an 'even playing field.' We can add 'uneven playing field' to any other number of excuses as to why we didn't accomplish this or that. I still know many who 'supplement' as I still have many friends who are bodybuilders and powerlifters, and this is there choice, right or wrong. As for me, I've found a better way. Thank you Crossfit. We'll see you all in California in a few weeks-
Sorry for the long post. I just get kinda emotional with thanks when I'm reminded just how much Crossfit has done for me, not only as an athlete, but as a person. Only another Crossfitter can understand what I mean when I say this-so thank you, sincerely.
Brandon Crossfit NE Georgia

113. Leslie P wrote...

I've wondered before if CF would ever take this step. I like that there will be drug testing. I doubt we're going to see a ton of names drop off the list.

While I think the competitive aspect is clear, I feel like we are all on the same team. For me, CF is different than a sport. In my sport, I always felt I was training, to some extent, for others. I CF for myself, only.

Also from CF HEL in Portland, supporting Kellams and Rome!

114. Reno_Ty replied to comment from sevan...

Sevan,
Only DT can answer most of those questions. But I do happen to know that Chuck Norris solved the mystery of the Bermuda Triangle using the Pythagorean Theorem. So we've got that going for us anyway...

115. Roland wrote...

Sevan,

3 - where is the lost city of Atlantis
According to Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods" Antarctica is Atlantis. It only moved to it's current position after a change of the tilt in the earth's axis.

PHD
The testing will always be at least one step behind. For all interested, read up on Angel Heredia - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article3908470.ece . The testing at the Games is a step that a hand full of idiots make necessary. You will not be able to weed out every user but it gets more expensive and therefore less common.

On a Different Note
The question remains though, does watching Spealer do a workout count as performance enhancement?

116. Nukemarine wrote...

I'm on the "don't give a crap" side. I use surgical enhancements when working out (shoulder surgery 10 years, later I'll get LASIK eye enhancement). I use mechanical enhancements (I wear glasses and wear shoes when running). I even have medicinal enhancements (I take anti-malaria pills so the mosquitoes don't kill me in Africa). I personally could give two squirts about anyone that chooses to use anabolic steroids be it legal or illegally.

So, CROSSFIT GAME ORGANIZERS, post the generic list of items that will be banned from the games, ensure it lists the parts per thousand or millions for a pass, don't forget to list items that exist in legal forms but will be banned from the game, ensure you list items that are legal in other countries (Canada and Mexico) but not legal in the US (yep, I have it on good authority more than US Citizens will be at the games). Basically, tells what the rules are so we can bend them like many do to their necks on what they call a pull-up.

You call steroids cheating, I don't as far as non-organized competition goes. I've been in the military for 15 years having all sorts of crap pumped into my system on the idea it'll make me a better soldier/sailor. I've had to put up with the lousiest training methods on top of that. Personally, if controlled administration of steroids and CrossFit produces a better "me" then I'm all for it compared to what is currently offered.

However, the games are organized, there will be rules. So post the banned list, but don't pull the "if it's illegal it's banned" cause that's BS. If I'm under 21 alcohol is illegal in some areas and not others, so will that be banned? It's a relaxant so maybe it'll enhance sports performance. Is marijuana going to be tested. Will the results of these tests be forwarded to legal authorities. Which legal authority (Federal, state, international).

Ok, mindless rant over. Good luck at the games guys and gals. Don't let the piss tests get you down.

117. DT replied to comment from Nukemarine...

You made a great point...if CF doesn't determine the list of banned/tested substances and distribute it soonest, then the RRG will go through its first crucible when a DQ'd competitor files a lawsuit. There are PLENTY of examples in the world of athletics of how litigation from allegedly "wronged" athletes can drag on and on and diminish the luster of a beautiful sport in the meanwhile.

118. Mo Diab wrote...

Good stuff guys!

119. Spider Chick replied to comment from sevan...

Well said, Sevan!

CrossFit is a magnificent sport. It's a fantastic lifestyle. If you live the CrossFit life, you know what we do, and defending ourselves against ignorant haters is just a time waster.

But, you've found a good use for the trolls! If someone like DT hasn't got the stones to live like we do, but impotently flails around on the games website, then by all means, let's enjoy his silly comments and have some fun. I laughed out loud at your comments! :)

A blessing on CrossFit, Bingo, Sevan, Castro, the qualified athletes, and most of all: Greg Glassman.

See you all in July.

120. Aush wrote...

Wow,...some Roid-heads are really not liking this. I guess it sucks to not be validated.

121. Nukemarine wrote...

Aush,

Although I'm seeing almost unanimous praise for this decision, I don't think one need be a roid-head to be against it.

For myself, it's just a personal opinion on the entire concept of drug testing. True, I never had anything stronger than maybe a beer or cigarettes when it comes to drugs. That doesn't mean I agree with being forced to urinate in a cup on a random basis. Personally it just feels like providing evidence against myself in violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ. Again, just a personal opinion dealing with a governmental organization. Not really relevant to the discussion, but it relates to why I was a bit heated in my comment.

CrossFit and the CrossFit games are a private entity and are within their rights to set up their own rules. I can make fun of their decision on this part, especially with the tag line "Break Records Legally". Some things that are legal are still banned in organized sports. Some things are legal in some areas and illegal in others. It seems silly.

Look, let me ask straight out: Can a CrossFit athlete that does not utilize steroids compete in a serious way with a CrossFit athlete that does use steroids in a number of random events? Straight out end of the day results, who's going to generate more power? Cause if steroids are producing the better athlete, then by the gods they can produce a better soldier, sailor, policeman or fireman.

I read on the boards week after week how we shouldn't follow rules about torture, or we shouldn't be hamstringing ourselves with rules when it comes to fighting terrorism. Well, if steroids can produce a better fighting man, why are we making it illegal or putting in a bad light? Do you want the terrorists to win?

How's that for veering off topic?

PS: Personally I don't think steroids would benefit the non-specialists athlete that CrossFit creates, but I have absolutely no scientific data to back that up.

122. Terry Butts wrote...

Now that's complete fitness...

123. Aush wrote...

Nukemarine,

I was just joshin for the most part...I personally don't think we have that many "roid-heads" per capita because the pay-off has been relatively small. As the games grow and people who place at the games start winning more and more $$ that will change.

***BTW, (and this is an aside) I think CF will be the only sport where the females and males will make the same amount of $$...it would be nice if the next CF movie highlighted female competitors the way Every Second Counts highlighted the males...*hint* Sevan, that would help to keep this sport at a level not shared by any other in the world!***

But to your MIL/LEO point, the difference is the same difference between sport and life.

In sport, we have people paying to come watch a competition...if the public wants those participants to bring only what they can produce from products A, E, and I and not anything beyond that. Then so be it.

In War, I'm throwing A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y at you. But even in war we still have ROE. So everything isn't as clear cut as I think you'd like it to be...

124. CraigH wrote...

I am an "anti-performance enhancement drug" guy. I have enjoyed reading most of the opinions here. Frankly, DT and Nukemarine expressed some very good points and are undeserving of personal attacks.

DT's perception of how steroid testing came to the games is probably not far from the truth. I suspect the community raised the issue and HQ responded. Knowing Coach, however, I can say that DT is inaccurate regarding HQ's desire to protect the "PR machine and sub-2min Frans." DT, haven't you read the rest-day articles? Coach can be an equal-opportunity offender when it comes to his opinion on matters. His principles and values supercede CF public relations sometimes to the chagrin of the "sheeple." And, he'll tell you so and could not give a sh-t if people think he should withold opinion.

Is announcing the tests 3 weeks in advance and testing for them the best method? Maybe, maybe not. But just like the Games and everything else CrossFit, they get better and better with time and experience. This process will evolve.

Frankly, I think testing does not eliminate performance enhancing drug use. Good cheaters will figure a way. I also think there are other drugs that may help more than steroiod - amphetimines and EPO for example.

And that's one big reason why I love about CrossFit: the community by and large frowns upon performance enhancing drugs and I think that has a large influence on behavior. I think drug testing should be voluntary - and positive results rewarded with recognition.

Nukemarine makes a great point: "Can a CF athlete that does not utilize steroids compete in a serious way with a CF athlete that does use steroids in a number of random events?" I think yes. And if that athlete stood on the podium and held up his "I'm Clean" card issued by a legitimate testing facility- I'd applaud even louder.

125. Guy wrote...

I'm not a steroid user but I am generally in favor of their responsible use. If Crossfit is mainly about self-improvement, one could even argue that responsible steroid use fits in with that goal.

That said, I'm totally on board with drug testing and punishment of cheaters. If the rules are defined and someone chooses to use steroids, they're cheating and should be punished. This is why I'm annoyed at the fact that Mark McGwire gets no Hall of Fame love at all but OK with Manny Ramirez's 50 game suspension.

The problem I have with this isn't that CF wants to test. It's great that they do. But it should have been announced before the regionals. There may be a competitor or two out there that did a cycle a while back or is on one now that now has a useless plane ticket and faces almost certain public humiliation. There may also be a competitor who is legitimately injured this week that will also be questioned unfairly and/or humiliated.

Say what you will about a person's choice to use steroids - if you disagree strongly that's fine - but before this announcement, people were free to do what they wanted and were under the impression that they weren't breaking rules. Now, someone who may not have chosen to use if the rule was in place earlier is going to get screwed, and the person they edged out in the regionals is screwed too because they would likely have qualified.

The nice thing about Crossfit is that it is by itself a performance enhancer: if you do it, you get better at everything. And you can succeed in it without using steroids. They're certainly not necessary to become good enough to win the games. It's great that HQ decided to officially outlaw their use, because now everyone can know for sure - but the better way to do it would have been to announce it before the regionals, or alternately, to wait to enforce it til 2010.

126. dan colson wrote...

Great call CrossFit. Doubt there are any tests that can eliminate all cheaters but for just year three of the Games, HQ is taking all the right steps!

127. GB wrote...

I Love Crossfit period. But what a joke. Lets announce steroid testing. How disingenuous.

128. Joe W wrote...

I believe Sevan is on Steroids

129. sevan wrote...

Hey Joe -

You saw me in my GUN shirt ?

130. Joe W-CrossFit Omaha replied to comment from sevan ...

I'm just suspicious about the way Hanz and Franz can hold the cameras over their shoulders all year long, traveling by night, sleeping little, and fighting off the CF groupies. Just makes me wonder????

131. KTB wrote...

Aside from the ludicrous idea of implementing steroid testing (like they are a professional sport) is the fact that you have to register to be a SPECTATOR at these stupid things. Whoever doesn't believe that Glassman hasn't just created a Ponzi-scheme with the benefit of actually getting people into shape needs to look into this. It costs $30 if you register on-line...or $60 if you show up on the day of the events. Are you kidding me...you are going there to watch people workout! This ain't the Olympics...and beside you know the whole CrossFit HQ staff is going to document the whole thing on camera and then put clips in the CF Journal (which you have to pay for by the way).

Maybe that is how they are going to pay for their steroid testing...or maybe their sponsor Panda Express is going to cover those cost.

I like doing CF workouts...but that is what they are a "workout" (Just like Doug said). CF was designed as a physical training regime back in the day...and then the "kool-aid" started getting consumed at a break neck speed and it has transformed into a sport??? Sorry...I aint buying it!

but in all reality... they will test for steroids and some of the biggest names in the CrossFit community will test "hot" and then they will be relegated to shame. Hopefully, Congress wont get involved...but if they do...that would be great PR for CrossFit. Maybe Glassman already has some sort of "incentive deal" worked out with some of those illustrious senators from the great state of California...

132. Phil wrote...

My money says this is a bluff. Having competed in a drug-tested sport before (and beaten some who tested positive), I can say that the costs are prohibitive to test the entire field of 75. There's just no way. Maybe they will collect samples from all 75, then test the top 5 men and women only, but there's just no way they can credibly test all 75 without spending $10k and that doesn't even cover the attendant liability risks for a positive test. Many sports have endured costly lawsuits for competitors trying to clear their name through the court system.

133. Phil wrote...

To add to what I just posted above, I noticed that there are at least 150 total competitors, not 75. I just spoke with a friend of mine who organizes the drug testing for my sport and he says reputable labs in the Bay Area of CA are $200 per test for on-site testing. This is most certainly a bluff as Glassman isn't shelling out $30k for testing. No way, no how.

134. nick wrote...

KTB,

I think you're onto something. Can't believe how stupid I was not to see it before.

You're right, it's a Ponzi scheme. How ingenius. They give a gigantic amount of exercise, reference and workout material away for free and people get amazing, almost unbelievable fitness results from it.

Lured in by these claims of amazing fitness results and 'free' training programs, exercise videos and written reference, other people are attracted in to this service and avail themselves for free as well.

What a devious, cunning plan. Just think, if this strategy continues, there may be a whole workd of fitter, better informed people benefitting from free training and information.

And just think what a bad place the world would be then.

Gotta hand it to Glassman. He's a devious, bad MF

thanks for spotting this KTB. You've done all us rank & file Crossfitters, lured in by outstanding fitness results for free, a huge favour.

135. sevan wrote...

KTB - have you been the Games? 2007 ? 2008 ?

Come on out buddy. I suspect you will sing a different tune.

I recently heard a 65 year old woman (non-CrossFitter) say - "The CrossFit Games makes the Olympics look silly, these people are incredible"

You should make an effort to come on out. You have never seen humans voluntarily push themselves to this place.

Plus it would give your words a little weight.

cheers
sevan

136. scp wrote...

Do you really think that testing is going to stop people from using. There are so many "designer" steroids, some that are technically legal because they have just been made and haven't been identified as being illegal. Anyway, i think the whole testing thing is just going to make a game of not getting caught. Also, crossfit is not going to have the drug testing power of the olympics, and the olympics are still catching only a small number of users. What about HGH, not going to get that in a urine test, but I do doubt many CF's could afford it

137. scp replied to comment from CraigH...

The idea that steroids and other such drugs won't make more competitive at crossfit is crazy. Steroids make better long distance runners and cyclists and better olympic weightlifters and powerlifters. Doing crossfit on steroids would make a world of difference. Add in HGH and EPO and the results might just be close to what we have seen on a few occasions

138. CraigH wrote...

KTB, you need to go back and look at some old videos of coach or just ask him - CF's success is almost accidental - and he's far from promotional - almost the opposite. He gave this stuff away for FREE on the website for years - and still does! Certifications, affiliates and the Games were the result of requests from the community. They charge $25 a YEAR for the Journal. And if they didn't charge for spectators, they wouldn't have port-a-potties, food, water and any place to park! They ain't makin' a profit on the games - do the math.

SCP: you're going to have to show me the evidence to make me a believer. For the specialists, those drugs could have a significant impact. For some CrossFitter's it's likely they'd see some benefits in some areas but not all. And will it guarantee qualification or victory? Nope.

I think testing should be voluntary. Prove your natural success and motivate others to follow your lead.

139. Dominic wrote...

What happened to that Josh Everett anti-roid clip? Why did it get taken down? I hope he isn't juicing.

140. Belgian Bull replied to comment from BC...

I know that is why I left Globo Gyms. Because of the steriod freaky/grunting groaning monsters that stand in the corner flexing in a mirror. I applaud drug testing, in fact I couldn't wait!

141. Andy Ha wrote...

I support the idea of doping tests, nevertheless the announcement leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

Eg. Will the WADA standards be met? What about athletes that suffer from chronic illness and are depend on "banned" medications?

142. spicoli wrote...

Craig H you are a moron. If crossfit didnt charge there would be no porta potties? What about the sponsors? I guess glassman gives away free sponsorship space. Also on the mainsite in the FAQ's glassman writes about using steroids. You CF nuts are giving the community a bad name and making Gym Jones who are self professed elitist pricks seem much more appealing. you people need to stop drinking the kool aid. CF is flawed and needs some working on and i am sure that some of the CF competitors have in the past and or are currently using juice. That doesnt mean that CF sucks or makes it less important. glassman isnt the obama of working out but he isnt the stalin neither. Most of you nuts need to drink a beer catch some waves and just relax.